Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Well, it's another exciting episode of Manhood. A lot was discussed in our last episode. We spoke about brotherhood. Let me do the introductions. Joel Julian Media. Johanse Iodk, behavioral Change consultant. And over time, I'm going to get it right. You know the very specificity of your title. The point is, you are the man with the the science behind a lot of what we discuss here at Manhood. And I'm really excited to have Ken Simmons join us. Ken Simmons, no stranger to TV or radio, welcome. Blaze, of course, is absent today, but he's here with us in spirit, here with us in the brotherhood that we have here on Manhood. So one of the things Ken and to our audience that we discussed, the last episode was all about brotherhood. And that many a time, we don't see that anymore. We don't see specifically in the Caribbean, we don't see that brotherhood. And what we're trying to do is to get to that place, that place of brotherhood, and help me know unite in a positive way, in a positive way, more importantly, positive way. So for those, we can catch up on that. If not, you can actually check out that episode. It's a pretty good one. But the topic that we want to talk about today, piggybacking off of that, is toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity is a negative term that is really based on the behavior, the harmful behavior that affects both men and women, because in the same way it affects the recipient of that behavior, it affects you as well, because it's not a positive behavior. So how that? It's a ripple effect. So you treat someone badly, they then feel a particular way about themselves, and then therefore, in a nutshell, you're the man to really get down to the science of that. But that's my understanding behind toxic masculinity, Robert, is important.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: You saying your understanding of it. Because in my research of exactly what is toxic masculinity, there are so many definitions. There was barely any definitions that actually coincided.
So it's really a narrative, right? And the problem sometimes with a narrative is that it's based on emotion.
Now, of course, there are things that, quote unquote, men do that would affect men and women. And it may seem at times that only men do it, but there's toxic behavior.
Now, sometimes it is more seen in men, let's say, towards women or even towards each other. And we could have a conversation about it, and I think we should, because we specifically talking about men's issues.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: But for me, the overarching team, there is toxic behavior.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Joel, tell them as you're saying, toxic masculinity. I don't know if I could specifically define it, but for me personally, if I am to identify it, I'll look at it as behavior that is, violence, domestic violence from that aspect. Because as I mentioned just now, domestic violence is not just a man versus a woman or a man versus a man, but it could be the other way. So domestic violence from the male side of it, where a man might use his power or his position to take advantage of that. And also, even in a space of back in the day, you would have had bosses who may tackle the female staff, pinch a bottom or make them do certain things because that they are in a position of power. So for me personally, if I'm to define what I believe toxic masculinity is a man in a position of power using that position of influence that he may have in a way that disadvantages people around.
[00:04:25] Speaker D: It's a term that has come up in recent times, right? But we live in a society that seeks to emasculate men and play down men's role in society. Hats off to the women who do exceptionally well. But more and more we're hearing the narrative. Of course men are not taking up their roles and their responsibilities. And of course, we in no way condone men using their physical strengths or their position or their voice to the detriment and to the demise of others, male or female.
But again, how can we distinctly differentiate a man being toxic masculinity? Let's just say there's no place for a man to be fought with and still and upfront.
Or is it that anytime that I take a position and make a decision, I'm being deemed as you're being insensitive or you're being harsh, you're being hard? Right? Of course we want to paint all men with a broad brush. I think we really need to differentiate it, especially in these times where you find that the masculine energy is not as prevalent as it should be.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: In my point of view, you mentioned masculine energy, and that's definitely a whole topic that we want to discuss in another episode of Manhood, because that in itself is a topic I find myself engaging with many people on and for people to understand and how that emasculates men and how women are feeling as a result of giving off that masculine energy. But for purposes of this episode, specifically, I want us to target toxic behavior with men, as you had mentioned. Johansson because that toxic behavior, and even, Joel, you touched on it just now, comes under the subject matter of domestic violence, objectification, which, as you quite rightly mentioned, Ken, from a position of well, domestic violence is domestic violence, but in terms of objectification, et cetera, can be subjective. Because we see on many occasions where if someone welcomes that response or they themselves may be attracted at that point, it might be seen as harassment or objectification because they're open, they're receptive to it. But if they're unwilling or they're not attracted to that particular person or not in that space, then it can be seen at that point as harassment. Either way, in a particular workplace, for all intents and purposes, it's not acceptable behavior especially in the present cancel culture society that we live in. So the point I'm really trying to get to, and I know I'm rambling on a bit about it, is the fact that toxic behavior is toxic.
And the truth is presencing yourself in a particular situation or asserting yourself as male and what males do and being masculine is one thing, but if your behavior is not welcomed by that person in terms of the way that you present yourself behave to that person and we disguise it in some cases of as a man, as a man is behaved and you demand, say, sex, you're demanding that they're still human at the end of it all. I see Johansey watching side there, like, come in with a point there, or I'm going to challenge him on that. That's what we're here for.
Even if your behavior mightn't be coming from a position of intent or toxicity, it's still received as toxic or it's still received negatively, which makes it toxic. And I'm looking at Johansson because I want clarification on some of the ramblings I was just on.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Let me go first with what Ken saying when you're speaking about emasculation in society and being assertive could be deemed toxic. And that's why I raised the point at first where it's really a narrative and sometimes it's a feeling thing versus there is a clear definition now. There's a clear definition of, let me say toxic behavior or let's call it improper behavior. Because either way, if a man objectifies a woman or a woman objectifies a man, there's an issue there. If a man uses his position to demand something, whether it is sex or any service, that's wrong. If a woman does it the same way, it's incorrect. And the problem sometimes now with buzwords and narratives is it could use to shut somebody down. So if I stand in my position, not even as a man, as a person, I stand in my position on something, somebody could say, well, you like your own way toxic masculinity.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:38] Speaker D: And paint everybody with a broad brush. Correct.
You can easily identify when a man we're talking about toxic masculinity is being abusive, is taking his power beyond where it should go. And it's easy, identifiable, but when the lines are blurred, as you rightfully said, we could just paint that towards somebody who is expressing his masculine side masculinity. And then now he feels bad now and feels like I'm doing something wrong. But really and truly, you're just exhibiting.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Who you really are and your intent there. Kenneth, there are times in my relationship or relationship in the past that you speak a certain way. I have a deep voice and people I don't like how you're talking to me. And in my mind I'm like, I'm talking calm. I have no intent, there's no toxicity, there's no negativity behind it. But immediately, as you said, this broad brush, the terms, the narrative that is then painted is toxic masculinity. So then friends are now coming and saying, toxic masculine.
That's a male, toxic male you're dealing with there. And then it changes you because now you become so aware, and you're not trying to counter that behavior, which becomes.
[00:10:53] Speaker D: An unnatural you begin to question yourself because of the statistics where men are being violent one form or the other towards women. So now you begin to check yourself and doubt yourself. Listen, did I do anything wrong? You start to question yourself. Just like you, Robert, I have a deep voice, too, as well. So sometimes when you're passionate about something, we say, Listen, this is what was to be done. And we say, who shouted me? And we could appear to be toxic in the eyes of who don't understand it.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Correct?
[00:11:27] Speaker D: But it doesn't mean that way. It means that I'm very stern. There's a time to laugh, and there is a time to have fun. There's a time to be serious. So that's why I said some behavioral patterns are easy, identifiable, but I don't want us to blur the lines. Now, in referencing this particular discussion, I read that telling a young boy, telling someone like boys will be boys in growing up, in order for you to develop as a man, to be tough, you can't baby, you can't protect or totally protect a young boy to the point that he doesn't understand that you will fall but get back up, right? You have to allow him to fall. Now, I'm not saying to condone the foolishness, you have to steer him in the right direction, but there has to be some sort of toughness that is groomed into him, directing him in the right way that said, listen, okay, he will do that. When you were young, too, we did stuff that we had to learn, and they corrected us, but allow them to be the passage of life with the proper direction. So, again, it's all part of, oh, gosh, do let him do that. And do let come down from there, right? And you find now we find that our men growing up now, not sure about themselves, doubting themselves, and even when they speak up in an assertive way, they are deemed toxic and abusive in some cases. And in terms of this discussion, I just want us to properly identify the traits that are toxic and those traits that exhibit.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: So basically breaking toxic masculinity what is toxicity?
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Ken, you raise a good point there, because I was going to ask Robert. Robert said before, sometimes when you're being hit with the term toxic masculinity, you feel bad and you question yourself. My question at that moment was, why do you question yourself? And then the point you raised about boys being raised in a way for them to be trained to not be sure of themselves, I see that part is important, because if a man is sure of himself, no man would be perfect.
[00:13:54] Speaker D: No, true, right.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: But at least being sure of himself, that's an important factor because that mitigates narrative. If you know, you like to be 30 minutes before any time you're going to something 30 minutes before, that's your rule. That's how you feel comfortable and you stick to it. If somebody say go give my little flexibility and then eventually you just like your own way. You are a narcissist.
[00:14:27] Speaker D: Use that term.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: You toxic masculinity. But that is your standard.
Right. Somebody else standard may be different, which is fine, but at least you know, at least you're sure of yourself. Exactly what is your standard?
[00:14:41] Speaker C: I just want to touch on that. So to me, if I'm coming up with a decision or I'm faced with a problem and I think like most men sit down and you stupid in your own mind, figure out how do I approach this thing? What's my plan? Action. This is thing before you actually talk, before you actually present what you think is the plan. And sometimes in past relationships and stuff like that, because I go through this whole thought process of all right, this is the problem. What is the solution that I need? Or what is the solution to this problem? And you go through this whole plan in your mind. So then when you come to your partner and say, hey, I think this is what we should do because you went through plan A, plan B, plan C, and then they now might respond like well, they didn't give me the opportunity to give an input. Or also how would you define something like that? Because I think like men, we kind of go through this whole this is the issue that we facing. I know as a man, I ain't going running number table between the legs to any and everybody to help me, but I want to know how I solve this problem.
[00:15:49] Speaker D: Listen, here's what's going on. And funny you say that, right? Because the thing that I believe in, my personal opinion, that facilitates or promotes or stares a male in a direction to exhibit toxic masculinity is of him not firstly confident within himself a feeling that you need to hold on and to control because you can't let go. So the very thing we create our own problems.
So because no, we have babied them, we have not directed them in the right paths for one reason or the other. There was an absence of a male figure, a true man figure, to direct them. Sometimes the man or the father was in the home, but he wasn't the proper example.
And we have a distorted view and ideology of what a man should be. Then we seek to form our own opinions and ideas.
As an adult now, we just feel the need to say listen, we need to take control. I need to take control. So I am going to use my physical strength. I'm going to use my position in the corporate space to control it because out of that control, I feel vulnerable, I feel stupid. So the very thing that the narrative that we speak towards our young boys, it come back to bite us later down because we don't allow them to be, but guide them, but allow them to be because we have to pass that passage of life. Every young man needs to pass a particular passage in order for him to learn to gain the experience right.
We have often heard the term when we try to shelter not just young boys, but young girls in particular, when we try to shelter them too much, you find when they get the freedom, they run amok, they run loose, they run wild. And the reverse, when we try to baby and try to shelter our young boys, we rob them of that opportunity of experience.
To fall down from the mango tree, to get a white man to say, don't worry, that happens. Dust yourself off, move on.
That is the passage to build mental toughness, not just physical, but mental toughness.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: Again, part of what manhood is supposed to be, to talk about a lot of these topics in further detail and we touch on it even when we're looking at a specific topic, we touch on little items. Then to me, again, those are pointers for me that I'll go, oh, that's another subject, which is when we talk about are we then training them to man up? Are we teaching them almost you shouldn't cry? And are these ways that we are showing them to not be human or emotional that are allowing them later on to have a different perspective?
It's a question I'd like to talk about in further detail, but I just want to come back to a point, Ken, if I may, that Johanse spoke about. When we talk about the narrative and perspective and we look at toxic masculinity and I want to put like I want to keep those two words together, I don't want to separate it because toxic behavior is toxic behavior. But in this particular circumstance, when we look at perception and you may be what may be deemed a man's, man depends on the environment you are, the upbringing, maybe the country, the background, the ethnicity.
There are many different reasons for particular behaviors. And someone may be accustomed to the woman should cook, the woman should clean, the woman should raise the kids and all of these again, I want to make it very clear it's not a personal opinion. We're here to talk about the particular subject. Those things are now deemed under that umbrella of toxic masculinity. When you exude that type of behavior or have that expectation, that in itself is that's the type of woman you want, and you want a submissive woman. And all of these different things start to come about. And that's where that term at least in my circles, that I would have been made aware of that term is because of women.
The modern day woman presencing themselves.
The man could stay home or the woman can go out to work.
Personally, I don't have an issue with that. But there are certain things that you come to expect from a woman or the woman that you're with, not necessarily to cook or clean, but there are other areas. And that, again, we talk about it being subjective, could be seen by a third party, someone who looks in, who only has a glimpse, a moment, a peep, then goes toxic masculinity.
[00:20:53] Speaker D: So, Robert, you're telling me, right, you're telling me that if a man has an idea of so my lady, I would rather a lady provide food for me, take care of the home, and I will take care of other business, right? You are telling me that society now will deem that as toxic masculinity based on a narrative.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Again, it would depend your hand because.
[00:21:23] Speaker D: Of my personal preference.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: I go in again with the emotional response.
So it touched on some good points. So I'll go first with Joel. Joel said before about you sit as a man, you plan, you organize your stuff, and then you come to your wife or your partner, et cetera, and she may say, you leave mouth, right? So cool in that point. Then you were talking about again, you raise the point and you elaborate a little bit on toughening up boys, giving them the opportunity as sort of a right of passage. So one is none of us, and I don't know anybody who had a perfect childhood. So all of us have some wounds to heal and because of it so let's go with men. Only now we're not talking about women. All of us men have some wounds to heal, and because of the wounds, sometimes it manifests itself if it is still open, as toxic behavior, which of course, because we are men, is now masculinity. So if we didn't get that toughness, then we may waiver, right? We know what we want to do, but then we waive about it. If maybe we didn't get our voice heard, we come with a plan and I want my voice heard and I don't want to hear anything else. So it manifests itself in that way, which as we define, is toxic. And because you are a man, it becomes toxic masculinity. And I think culturally let's go with the Caribbean. There are different ways that men and women are raised. So if it's something specific to a man and it's, let's say, unhealthy, then it may be redeemed as toxic masculinity. So I like your point. I gave the caveat at first of the general toxic behavior, but we're keeping it specific to men and how men are raised culturally and what could cause the toxic masculinity to manifest, because you.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Said something at the start which is one we have identified, it's subjective. And that you would even in your research has seen that there's several different understandings of toxic masculinity. So there's not even a predefined sort of meaning in Webster or Oxford. It's a term that is recently, as with cancel culture that's come up. So then how do you identify if I am a guy who's accustomed to a certain behavior or a certain type of relationship, and then I go into another relationship and that person is polar opposite, right? At that point, I've gone from normal regular understanding that's in that environment to now I'm toxic.
So therefore, is there in your opinion or in your professional opinion, Johansey, a specific guideline or a specific particular trait that someone can identify? We talk about being sure of ourselves that I could identify that, you know what, this is not good. This is not good for me, who I want to be as a person. This is not good for what I want for my partner. Even though, as you mentioned, Ken, that that person might be open to know cooking and they may want to do those things for their man. But I'm saying to you, if I myself want to be a man and I'm not talking about man by the definition of earning, keeping the household, taking care of business, these type of things. I'm talking about that you can look back and feel proud that I've accomplished these things. Is there something I need to stay away from as that understanding of toxic masculinity?
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Yes, it is simple but not easy, which is ask yourself why. Now, this is something that I do, especially in couples counseling, because many times each partner wants something specific from each other, but sometimes you don't even know why. And then you may have a surface understanding of the why. And then you go back. And you go back. Now, I say not because let's say I want my wife to cook every day at 1212 noon. Why? Because I want to eat. Why? Because that's what my mother did. Why? Because that's what Granny did. If you understand, you've been cultured that way versus giving it time or even space to be flexible with it because let's say your wife now or your partner, they grew up only cooking once a week. So now is it that you enforce or impose your will on that person or you listen to the conversation? So I started first with the why every man. And even going back to Joel's point where you say you sit, you analyze, you understand before you reach. I think it's important for every man to know why I want something, why I want to do something. Why is this my preference? And then maybe when you understand that.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: You could still want it. So what you're saying you can still want it, but it's a why that's important?
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: So when you introspect, it can't be from a negative space. So if I want my woman woman to if I want that the person I'm with to prepare meals and it's coming from I just love your cooking, then that's fine. But not from a position of you should do it because you're a woman.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:49] Speaker D: How is that determined as a man? You will have to ask yourself that internally. But again, it all boils down to if I'm going to a relationship, if it works well for us, who are you on the outside to say it's toxic? Yeah.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: Have an input.
[00:27:08] Speaker D: So rightfully you say that a couple here may be going very fine. The woman may not define the man as having toxic masculinity traits, but then he goes into somebody else who does not see the same way that they see. Right. So again, it's subjective.
Out of this discussion today. I want us know, especially as men, when we are told hey, that is toxic masculinity, which is a term that is recent, that we clearly understand and we do doubt that.
Is it that we're really exhibiting those toxic masculinity traits or is it that you're just using that term to make me feel bad? Right? So we need to identify that. Because with all due respect to all the ladies, not who is looking right now, but there are some ladies who like to use their mouth as their weapon. So they have a new term. Hey, we use that term as soon as we say something or do something that they like. Toxic masculinity. Right? And again, we have to be sure and at all points and we have to be sure in relation to our preference, but I am not causing you harm and pain and what I am doing here is not a toxic behavior, but also it's a preference. And don't make me feel bad of something that is natural because I am not imposing my will onto you.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: You said something there that we come back full circle to part of the meaning in terms of the research that I did, the understanding of toxic masculinity, which one of those things would be that it's a behavior that causes harm or injury. Right? So if we are looking at that and I know there are many different interpretations of toxic masculinity, but if we use your point, Ken, if it's one thing that a third party is looking at a relationship and saying that person is exuding toxic masculinity. Right. But if the person themselves is feeling that way, then there is toxicity because say for example, if I am on a going out and a conversation comes up and the person I'm with interjects or is laughing at me as well. So you're laughing with everyone who may be laughing at you, who may be insulted, then I might be going when I say I we're just using that for reference.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: Disclaimer.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Disclaimer. So we're saying that you're out and the person in the car on the way home. You are now upset or you're saying, don't ever do that again, you're disrespecting me. Right? So you feel disrespected by the fact that she was part and parcel of what may be seen as initially tongue in cheek, a bit of boys talk, but then your woman itself laughing. And it depends on the topic as well, because if the topic was something that is a little deeper or might touch a nerve that they might know of, but your partner may know of, then it becomes even more painful. And that in itself may allow for certain behaviors. And we can go into things like domestic violence, et cetera. But it comes back to the point of the disrespect that you may then feel as a result of behaviors or the fact that she may not cook or do certain things, it all comes down full circle to it's toxic, it's not working for the relationship, both parties. And she has at that point feels that in her mind, even though she may say it or not say it, like was your story or who you feel you are feeling talking to me like that and all of these other things. And then in her mind now that there's a term, toxic masculinity, red flag, I need to move away from that or we need space, we need time. All of these different things come up because of what we're using now as a term. But there is credibility to it.
[00:31:25] Speaker C: Actually, my thinking now is that we have touched the issue of relationship and toxic masculinity from that angle. But funny thing is I was thinking about would you define toxic masculinity as, let's say, like back in the day, you might like something as a boy or a man or whatever, but because you feel it might not be deemed cool or masculine.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Hiding it now.
[00:31:54] Speaker C: But let's say I really like Queenie bad, right?
I find Freddie is one of the baddest, but may not necessarily be queen, but let's say somebody might fight it on for like an hour. Boy George back in the day.
[00:32:09] Speaker D: Boy George.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: My boy George. I was a boy, George.
[00:32:14] Speaker C: I was wondering if that could also be defined as, let's say, toxic masculinity. You feeling as though you might want to hide some element or aspect of something that you might like because you might feel others might say and my others are meaning bridge might say, nah.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: Nah.
[00:32:34] Speaker C: Right. So I use it like the queen Annie, Boy George, which we might all say respect them as artists. Let's say I'm Aleca Bali.
Dicey thing.
[00:32:46] Speaker A: So we are talking like ballet or want to be in Bali.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: Okay. So when I was growing up, until I realized sport, right? So I got into team sport from a young age and things. So football, cricket. I wasn't good at cricket, but playing cricket. But you couldn't tell majority netball because in my mind. Netball, the way you all know how netball has been basketball. They could shoot from anywhere.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Netball.
[00:33:14] Speaker C: You had a kind of.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: Nothing wrong with that.
[00:33:20] Speaker C: So I just said, imagine if somebody that was their thing, whether it be playing that ball or liking ballet, instead of sitting watching EPL, instead of watching our ballet tournament. And that is your flick, but you're hiding it from your bridge because, you.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Know, it's like pink and blue.
If your son wants to be a blue room or pink, you even see it when they have those reveal parties.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Joel, what you're saying?
First thing first. I love this conversation. I love this conversation because most times when we hear the term toxic masculinity, we think about it in a male female perspective. But also, very importantly, among men, you can have, quote unquote, toxic masculinity. And one definition of what you see in there is the inability to express yourself openly without negative judgment, right? And that real important, because even to your point about a man being sure of who he is, right? And if we don't allow boys, because men perpetuate that at times, boys perpetuate that, even women, some might say, I don't want my son doing XYZ or.
[00:34:36] Speaker C: Doing that as a man or as a boy.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: You're not supposed to XYZ, right? And just listening to everyone one, it brings you back to the last episode where we spoke about a man being the rock among the ocean. And what we were saying, Ken, is that a man should be a rock and the ocean, whether it is relationship people, society is always beaten against you as a man. We need to stay firm and not crumble if we want to define maybe what is toxic masculinity, or maybe even the opposite of it is that a man or a boy should be able to flourish, right? And I use that word purposefully because you might use the word flourish usually with a man, but allow a man and a boy to be who he is, to see, because he like Boy George. But why I like Boy George because it may be something very masculine or something necessary to society, even Boy George in himself. I don't know much about Boy George.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: But it's a safe space.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Anyone who has the fortitude to be an artist, to sing, to perform, to be a top performer, that in itself, to me is a masculine shit, no matter what you're present.
[00:35:54] Speaker D: So you make mention about ballet, right? Let's be honest, if you have a son who looking at ballet and want to do ballet, you would have questions.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: You would you would have questions based on society. Based on society.
[00:36:10] Speaker D: But that's not something normally any man would do. And I'd say, I mean, you're not painting anybody with a Broadbush, but it's just unusual. So let's not sit around this table judgment and just say things politically correct. Because I hear in you and I understand nothing is fundamentally wrong with it. Right. But again, what Joanne was saying is just a matter of why.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: I like ballet.
[00:36:34] Speaker D: Why I want the tip on your toe.
Okay?
[00:36:40] Speaker C: You might have like, the male cheerleaders.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: And we keep coming back.
As Johansey mentioned, the key thing here that's driving this entire conversation comes down to why.
If your why is simply, I have been to ballets, living in New York. I've been to the New York Ballet and things, and I enjoy the experience. But I take Ken's point. If my six year old came to me and said, dad, I want to put on a tutu and I want to go and do ballet, I would have questions, of course, and my first thing would be, okay, well, it's not coming from the household.
Is it something he's watching on YouTube or any of these things? And again, it's nothing coming down to whether you start to go down the thoughts of homosexuality or heterosexual. My thing is, he's six, and what is he looking at that's influencing that interest and that behavior? Now, if it's simply is it that he's among a lot of female company? Is it that he simply likes to jump up and down and doesn't understand the very nature of? Then again, so we come down to the why, and if it's that, then that's cool. Then I could identify to say, well, son, this part of it, the tutu, always is called a tutu, right? Yeah. We're now, in colloquial terms, I would then have a conversation with him, but that's because of what he's seeing. He's associating that with he wants to jump up and down, and then that becomes cool. And again, this does not come down to sexual preference because he's six. He's not even thinking about that yet. So I don't want to get him into that thought process until he's an adult. And then whatever he chooses to do, whether it's my liking or not, that's on him. I would always love him.
[00:38:37] Speaker D: But then, Robert, if you're seeing that your son is expressing that level of interest in that direction, you within yourself knowing that, of course, it's not coming from anywhere in the house. So certainly not me. But you would try to stay. The narrative is like you wouldn't want that.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: But I'm not saying that. I'm not saying I wouldn't want it. I'm coming back to Johansson's point of the why. So I wouldn't want him dressing that way. But his interest in Bali will not affect me going forward, because I now understand the why, which is, if you.
[00:39:12] Speaker D: Amongst your peers, say, what your son doing? Well, I'm just going to drop the son to ballet.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:17] Speaker D: Be honest. Your son doing ballet, how would you feel?
[00:39:22] Speaker A: We talk and how I feel? What I do. No, because how would you feel?
[00:39:26] Speaker D: And you will allow him to express himself in terms of ballerina boy, right?
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Ask him two questions, you got to be specific. You said how would I feel or what would I do? Both, right?
[00:39:45] Speaker C: I sell them to Cassie by the recital.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: What I would do is I would allow him.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: The why could be the line between toxic and not toxic. Because let me use the example your son come, he say he want to join ballet, he want to wear tutu.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: If you say boy don't no, he didn't say he want to wear tutu.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: He want to join Bali, right?
[00:40:17] Speaker A: He wants to join Bali, actually, right?
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Is boy don't think ting together, he start to get on that's toxic, right? But then if you ask why and you understand, correct, right. That's the difference between toxic or not. Even Ken's example. Let me see you go with your friends. No way you're going by going drop my son to buy, I will feel away, no depend, because how your friends react could be an example again, a toxic, masculine, of course. And then, if you show, because this is where a man are coming, you ought to be sure of what you're doing, right? If you show of the wife, if after you talk to your son and you come to a conclusion that you're sure around even your men, even your brethren, you ought to be able to stand up for it. Now, if you're unsure and this is where sometimes.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: The point I'm trying to make with Ken is that the issue, which could be another topic all again is not. And I've seen this to Joel, I've seen this to you, Johansson, to Ken and to our listeners and viewers, the issue is not my feelings upon my child, right? What my brethren's think, or toxic masculinity at this point, because the issue here is past toxic masculinity, it's at six.
Those thoughts and all the rest of it are not a factor. So I'm not going to do things to encourage or detract, which depends on what it is to stop him from doing something. So I'm saying to you that I will suppress my feelings. To answer your question, right, I will take Mapong from a breadren's because, yes, toxic masculinity, because we are adults, we've made decisions whether it be heterosexual, homosexual, trisexual, all the rest of whatever sexual I heard a new term this morning, hypersexual, right? So in speaking about those things, by the way, I'm Cposexual for those who want to know, right?
So my thing is it's that e six, if it's a conversation at 18 and my son comes to me and says maybe something similar to hey, dad, I don't want to go to college anymore, where's your fundamental go to ballet school, right? It may be a different tango, because at that point it is now alluding to Robert, maybe a preference.
[00:42:51] Speaker D: Respectfully, it's too late. You as a father, right, you have a responsibility to that young boy to grow him up.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: No, not his sexual preference.
[00:43:00] Speaker D: No, not to his sexual preference. But of course you have a level of influence on your boy. And I'm just saying that yes, you'll take your pong.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Based on what's the.
[00:43:14] Speaker D: Wear tutor, you say, no, I haven't that. So obviously there is a line. So if you come nice, they say nicely, you don't have to use a masculine tool. So, son, why it is that you want to do all right? And you see that he's getting deeper and deeper into it and he's mointed.
[00:43:33] Speaker A: I'm just saying preference.
[00:43:35] Speaker D: No, but again, we're right, and we cannot have this discussion, and you cannot separate your desire because every parent will have expectations.
They shouldn't try to live their life through their children. They should allow them to be but if you're seeing your child, if you are charged responsibility up to 18 to steer them in a direction, you personally.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: Who determines our direction? No, but who determines the direction?
[00:44:04] Speaker D: To guide them. To guide them. And I am saying but to guide them.
You cannot sit here around this wrong table. All the people that are viewing and saying to me, you're politically correct. And I know, and I know, and I will just allow no, you will feel over a period of time of course this is a made up scenario, but I am saying over a period of time, when you see the interest is more and more and he's shopping for tutu, right.
No tutu in this house.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: But you're assuming that being a me.
No, we need to qualify because people tend to get away with certain things.
[00:44:48] Speaker D: Right.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: I'm not ken in particular, but I'm talking about we know cancel culture and viewers and how people immediately hear something and at some point they may even switch this off and not hear the point. Right. So I just want to come back just to clarify. And of course, Johansson, I welcome your clarification of being an ombudsman in this conversation.
So I'm saying to you that the assumption is that at that point and we talk about maybe going into the Gen X and the other generations later on, is that when we hear things that I identify as a right to us on this table, at this moment, I'm painting us with our broad brush. That's a bit ridiculous when we hear those things. Right, it is, however, maybe two generations down, that's going to be common. It's going to be common speak. And therefore, I'm saying to you that in my upbringing now, if I want to be a ballet dancer, if I want to be a ballerina like Joel or listen to a Boy George, I had these inhibitions. My thing is my grandfather, I'd have got tap around my head because the older generation at that point, they're not understanding of that behavior. So I'm less tolerant. So I'm saying because I'm a millennial, which I'm not a millennial.
So Gen Z, we are crossover between understanding, say, a rotary phone and now knowing our mobile phone. So the old lack of technology, no technology. So I'm in between and I'm saying to you that my child is seeing doing that. Of course, I am a heterosexual male, right? So if I see those things happening, I want my son to be a heterosexual male, right?
Whether I'm chastised for that matters not. It's my child, right? So therefore, that's what I would want for my child, right? So I'm saying to you that but if it's another male or another person and they couldn't care less, you may not have that thinking. You may not care what your boys think because your boys are also coming from a heterosexual background that they look and say, boy, are you going to send your son to ballerina school, ballet school? But I have other friends who would be like, boy, big up yourself, good on you.
[00:47:11] Speaker C: Be the best ballet be the best.
[00:47:12] Speaker A: Ballet dancer could be. And nothing is wrong in that. That's what I'm saying. So it comes from you're making be it valid or not, you're making an assumption that I have no issues with my son. I'm just going based on before you.
[00:47:34] Speaker D: One point, right, interject.
And your preference should not be defined as, well, your toxic masculinity because you want to stay or you have a desire for your child to go in a particular direction. Now, people, if you feel that certain way, people might say, well, you know, you're selfish. That's toxic. Robert way.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:47:57] Speaker D: And we're going back to the point in terms of and that's why I want us to clearly define in our discussion, hopefully by the end of our discourse, we would clearly define what is toxic masculinity.
That's one aspect of it.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: All right, let me clear the energy is great.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: It's conversation, it's not an opinion.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: I'm going to throw something out is that it's very possible that all of us and I make a blanket statement, all of us men we talk about men have some trait of toxic masculinity in us that may be unconscious, right? Because even listening to both of you and then I put myself in a situation, okay, if my son come, et cetera, et cetera, for Bali. And then I even thought if a client comes and say that and I realize for myself and I being honest, I had a different Disney coming up with a scenario here in my head, I have a different emotional response date. And then now I started to ask myself why God is talking so long? I had time to give.
[00:49:05] Speaker C: Why not?
[00:49:09] Speaker B: Why am I thinking this? Why? And I started going back and realizing that I myself have some have a trait of intolerance or a perception of that passed on from my grand grandmother, my grandfather, people around me, et cetera, et cetera. So you see that you want us to define just define toxic masculinity, a surgeon fate. That one word or that one statement that could be it.
Thus far, what I'm getting is intolerance, intolerance and or if you want to go inflexibility, because I want this this way and it has to be this.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: Let me give you one more word.
[00:49:50] Speaker C: I like the inflexibility.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Let me give you one more word. Judgment. Because you see, your first thing with Ken and I having a discourse, but we are brothers is you said, let me clear the energy. But Ken's energy and my energy was positive. We were just told, but because we're passionate and the depth of our voice and so on, the perception was immediately that we raw. We go in at each other like we have a disagreement, but it wasn't. It was positive conversation. And what you did there is exactly what people on the outside do, females, et cetera, when you come with that passion. Passion is then perceived as toxic masculinity.
[00:50:30] Speaker D: It wouldn't have reached a point where.
[00:50:31] Speaker C: I take up the mic and I don't have my phone.
[00:50:38] Speaker B: Your judgment of my judgment is incorrect.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Right. I didn't think you.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: This I could have asked me, I could have say, why are you going at it like this without a judgment? You could have asked why you asked that question without judgment.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:50:57] Speaker B: And that in itself is the crux of it, because all of us must have judgment. Sometimes people say, Well, I don't know what the judgment that's incorrect. We will judge people and be judged all the time because of our principles, how we grew up, socialization, et cetera. Now, the key is now with that judgment, you accept it. This is who I am, and the judgment may not be relevant to all situations. So when you could ask yourself why I grew up with again, let me say my mother cooking XYZ, right? This is what I grew up with. This is my perception of what a woman is. But now I'm in a different situation with a different person. Why do I want this instead of imposing it, instead of just judging right. And thinking my judgment is gospel? Because that in itself could be toxic.
[00:51:47] Speaker C: Honestly, like the last episode, I feel like there's a point where something stands out. And for me, this episode is at flexibility.
Yeah, because as you write, freeze your ladder, inference, life, we all have these things that we come into.
Because of my life, I'll be thinking a certain way and somebody else might be thinking differently. But it's how you approach that. And that lack of flexibility is what I believe narrows down to toxic masculinity because you're not willing to at least understand why you're coming from and it is put on your stick and not changing because as you're talking and we kind of went around the bush with the Bali when I grew up. When I was growing up I was growing up by time with Boom. Bye bye. And that kind of thing. And my wife could probably attest it how I was growing up and my inflexibility to certain things has changed because.
[00:52:53] Speaker D: You realize you just say firebound them.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Used to say fireball, fire bond them.
[00:52:58] Speaker D: But no, you realize if you had.
[00:53:00] Speaker C: A fireborn, all of you out of for me personally.
So that's why the flexibility or using the inflexibility as the gauge for being toxic because we are all presented with different data on a daily basis. We all presented with different ways of thinking and different reasons why we do things.
So yeah, that is the standout to.
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Me and I really appreciate so I want to come to the point that of course is our podcast. We could go on forever, right? But I always like to bring a close to it when we find that nugget, that nugget in the conversation based on the subject matter of today, which was based on toxic masculinity. The nugget here today is, as Johansey put it, in context, which is why we always appreciate you being here, is simply why it doesn't matter the scenario, the question. We can go do a deeper dive as we go along in more episodes of Manhood, which is into domestic violence, which is a very big one. And the why behind a lot of that, that can stem from this toxic masculinity, the masculine energy which comes from our partner or persons in our environment to make us feel a certain way or emasculated, right. Those are all things that we'd certainly want to discuss. So today's nugget, why intolerance inflexibility.
I just want to go around once again maybe some of your other takeaways from today's discussion. Our next topic will certainly be based on masculine energy. Another big one, Joel?
[00:54:43] Speaker C: Well, first of all, Ken, I really appreciated your discourse here. I think you added I element it.
It was good because one of the things when I was having this discussion with Robert is that I don't want this conversation just to be us pretending.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:55:04] Speaker C: And I think that we'll be doing ourself a disservice. We'll be doing a young man looking on the disservice or anybody else looking on a disservice. If we do try to be genuine and try to have like real conversation.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: We'Re not trying we be in genuine being genuine.
[00:55:20] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:55:21] Speaker C: I really appreciate that. So I enjoyed this episode. I say what really stood out to me is that being able to understand why something is being done and if even after understanding why, you're not willing to at least say all right, I understand where you're coming from. Let me try to I think that is my takeaway. That being tolerant, being flexible and approaching things, understanding why people do things as it and why we even for ourselves.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: Might be doing things as it's the way we are.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: Even if you understand why, it doesn't mean you have to like it.
So it's not a case of you now sacrificing who you are, right? And that could be a good differentiation between toxic is that I understand why, but I don't mean I impose it, I don't like it, but I'm able to exist in the same space as you with tolerance, with flexibility. And also our takeaway is that this ken, I appreciate you being here and I'm going to tell you why. It highlights the importance of men meeting of men, just talking with each other, different kind of men, different ages of men because none of us perfect. And what you know, Ken, I don't know and what I know, you don't know. So we sharpen each other and even that to define that toxic masculinity because notice we had to hear from each other, we had to be honest with each other. And then I pull a little bit, robert, pull a little bit ken, pull a little bit, joel, pull a little bit and then we leave with something positive.
[00:57:04] Speaker D: Thanks elderly.
It wasn't planned, but I appreciate the space and the opportunity to dialogue. I was telling Johan says that I love to be in the company with men who have different ideas and views and philosophies because as the saying goes, iron sharpened iron. And for me, the whole discourse of course, you mentioned why inflexibility it's all about knowing thyself. And I want to quote from Shakespeare, he says, to thine own self be true and you shall not be false to any man. And I think a lack of knowing yourself causes us to inflict knowingly or sometimes unknowingly harm to another.
And it's important for us at any stage, on any level as a boy, the responsibility is for the parents to facilitate, to help the young man know himself. Let me guide you, let me guide you and steer you to know yourself. I'm not trying for you to be me because I know you are born with your own identity and there's a purpose that God has for your life. So my job is a caretaker to guide you accordingly and let me do that to the best of my ability, right? And sometimes it's hard as a parent to take out our personal wants and desires, especially if we felt that we wasted our youth and we want to live our life through our children. So the takeaway out of this in relation to toxic masculinity is to know thyself once you know yourself and hopefully that in knowing yourself you're going to be honest with yourself, it will cause you to want to be better. Because we can't make anybody change by just looking at this podcast out of this conversation. Something probably would have been said to cause you to say, hey, you know what, I really need to check myself. I'm causing harm to the people who I claim to love.
Hopefully that would have sparked into you to make a change wherever that you're viewing. And I'm hoping that in the long run, this would be the catalyst for change. So the key takeaway is that in order for us not to impose our will and our judgments and cause harm to another human being is to know thyself why and allow us to be a little bit more flexible and understanding.
[00:59:36] Speaker A: Appreciate you, Ken. Appreciate you being here with us. It's serendipitous that I managed to grab you and say, hey, giveaway take a seat.
I know Blaze is back with us next week, but of course, bigger Blaze, but of course, feel free to drop in anytime. Your thoughts, your comments, your provocations again, provocations, it's something that stirs things up and as you said, to get us out of maybe what may be perceived as political correctness, of which it wasn't. It was genuine. But the perception is and perception is fact in most people's eyes, interpretations. So to jolt us and to give us another level was certainly appreciated in the forum here today.
And I wanted just to speak a little bit about that why and we all touched on it in some form or fashion that even though you may understand the why through that introspection, as you also mentioned, Johanse, doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable with it. But knowing thyself, knowing that I take that I'm not comfortable with this, what am I comfortable with? Because people end up being in relationships that have become toxic unities and they thrive in that environment. And thriving in that environment can only make an acidic I don't know if.
[01:01:00] Speaker B: They'Re thriving, but it function, it's functioning.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: Toxic functionality, which is again, there's so many other topics that could come from this. But the point that we certainly want to leave you, our listeners, with our viewers in this podcast is toxic masculinity. Whether we look at toxic relationships or toxic masculinity, is there toxic femininity?
That's a topic for probably another point. It's still toxic. Toxic meaning it's not good. It's not good for the woman, it's not good for the male or the male company, rather the man himself. And in knowing thyself, who wants to be in a toxic environment. So to ask yourself the why, ask yourself what you're willing to be part and parcel of and why. Whether it be societal influences, upbringing, your present circumstances, something that you're not doing, insecurities, imperfections, whatever that why is or the reason that you're not comfortable after finding out the why is something that we hope during manhood to have further discussion on at some point I will hopefully we'll welcome maybe callers some live comments coming through with regards to that and really just determining I love how you ended know determining knowing thyself. So thank you once again, Joel, Johanse, Ken, always a pleasure. Next episode, masculine energy.
[01:02:30] Speaker D: Big one.
[01:02:31] Speaker A: That's a big one. Thank you.
