Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: So thank you for joining us again on manhood. We've had so many really great conversations. Some have been absolutely epic. And you think you go into this subject knowing, having done your research, and then you come out of it with so much more knowledge and a whole other point of view, which is really good and which is what the show is about. We're not here to give our own opinions. We're here as a few persons talking to everyone. And once again, I'm delighted to have another female on manhood. Let me do the introductions once again. Johan T. Odik, behavior change consultant, Shereen Pollard. Really happy to have her finally in the seat at manhood, manager of gender based violence at the Trinidad Tobago Police Service and Tadius Tadiboom, entertainer, singer, actor, you name it, he's done it. Tadius is really good to have you to get a whole other blessings, man. And from also a generational perspective, which is really great, one of the things we want to make sure we're meeting everyone where they are, and to meet them where they are, you have to be in that place. So I would say, I don't know. I mean, I don't want to call anybody by age, but I think that we have a good, a lot of diversity here.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Calling people by age.
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Of course.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: So again, as we on man would do, it's all about being very open, very straightforward. There's no cover for your mouth, as they say.
And today's topic that'll be for that. So we always very respectful of tart, of course, tart. One of the things that is a burning topic I marinated so much as to how we bring all this entire conversation into like a melting pot. And Shereen and I have had many a conversation, actually was part of starting off manhood in the first place. And the subject, or the topic I came up with a phrase is just saying no. And in just saying no, you immediately go to the space of a woman and a man, or a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. Basically sexual interaction. And that's where it normally comes from. But we're going to talk about it across the gamut, what it means to really just say no. And that means the burning topic that most women have on their lips, and men to a certain extent, equality, equity.
I'm just going to do like, I just want to really sit back in this one and just enjoy the conversation.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: All right, so you threw out just say no, and then you threw out equality versus equity.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Just a bit of context. So the whole just say no apart from us going to be discussing it with regards to sex, from when a woman says no, she really means no. And we're going into all chivalry, dead dating, all of these different things. It just say no. With regards to equality is women in what it may be considered in a male dominated environment and what women really want. And part of that, as we quote our good friend Dr. Jordan Peterson, is women for the most part are the gender that's more agreeable.
I know you're waiting to fire.
I said it in context.
Women are more agreeable. And as a result, in order to be able to get to those positions, they have to do what men themselves may be open or have committed to doing. So, working 80 hours, weeks to be entirely focused, give up everything that you can to get those particular jobs. If a woman wants to also achieve that, she has to be almost take on those male traits and just say no to being so agreeable. So I'm just, again, Dr. Jordan Peterson. I'm just putting that out there and let's go.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: All right. So I could start women being more agreeable. I agree with that because generally women tend to make decisions based on emotion more than logic. So if we go in agreeable, then you would think about, well, how the person might feel, if it might look bad, et cetera, et cetera. So even when negotiating, because I remember the example he gave was when women negotiate in salary, most women don't negotiate well because they're wondering, they even thinking about the company. Like if the company have enough money, can they pay me how it might look? Versus a man saying, daisy, job are doing, you either pay me or you do payment. So generally, I would agree with what Jordan Peterson saying, that women are more agreeable in general. And that's why sometimes women do succeed in the workplace, because the things a man might be and might ask for, even have the pun intended to ask for a woman may not be, will.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: I just want to interject there.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Your name is not Shereen.
[00:05:15] Speaker C: Okay, go ahead.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: I know ladies are always first, right? But it's just when he made the analogy to don't have the balls, and it's just always a pet peeve of heart that where did that ever come from? You don't have the balls to do something. You don't say, Kohor is testicular fortitude, but you kick a man balls. That's heel. You go down on the ground. So the balls, the whole fact that you're using that as a position indicator of power somehow is a bit of.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: An oxymoron yes or no?
Let me tell you, I see that argument, what you say there, that argument actually came from a woman. So what you're doing is parrot in an argument of a woman.
Two is that it came from, and.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: It could be erroneous in an argument for woman. That's not.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: I say it was bad.
I say it was.
[00:06:18] Speaker C: Hide it a little bit.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: I didn't say it was bad insinuation, which sometimes women jump to in terms of conclusion.
[00:06:28] Speaker D: Oh my good, right.
[00:06:32] Speaker C: I want to challenge something as we continue.
I want to count how many times you say some women before you start a sentence in this discussion.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: And tell me if that's just not very much a generalization. So is it that you feel that you maybe know enough or have done enough research or has had enough life experience to be able to say confidently, this is what some women do?
[00:07:00] Speaker D: I'm just saying, do you want to.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: See a percentage of women that just become behalf of women?
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Let's just drop the.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Well, okay, I'll consider what you're saying before. Sit. I'll consider that. But I like what you said in terms of percentage. So let me go back to the point you're saying about that term came from, because in general, it was generally thought that a man was more assertive in certain actions and a man in terms of physical aggression and action. So when you use, even though I agree a vagina, by technical, is stronger physiology, vagina is stronger than. So I get what you're saying, but that's not the context it was used. It's more in terms of the masculine energy. Identify that and association.
[00:07:52] Speaker D: You're talking about a man, correct. I thought I'll see it as.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: So before that analogy came up and I interjected, I apologize. You were making a point.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: I'm trying to remember now.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: We were talking about woman being right.
[00:08:08] Speaker C: Woman being more agreeable. So I think it's society's expectations and the roles that are placed on women that makes them more agreeable. So if you look at the roles that they're placed in. Right. So motherhood, they automatically become agreeable to some extent, I guess, taking care of a house. Right. So you become more agreeable that way. Women would generally, within the workforce as well, started off in these support positions, right? So when you're in these support positions, you're like, okay, yes, whatever you need. That kind of thing. So I think it's a societal kind of expectation on women that women have adopt. And it's not necessarily wrong, it's just the way society has just evolved. Right.
But I hear what you're saying in terms of maybe women not negotiating for a better salary because they're worried about the organization not having enough money. I can very much say I've never cared about an organization's budget when it came to negotiating my salary.
And I hear what you're saying. But on the other spectrum of that, there are women who really, within the workplace, it's very difficult to get that kind of equity as it relates to pay in a job that I very recently had.
Call names now. No, I can't do that.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Okay, close.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: I learned that myself and a male counterpart, we both came into the organization at the same time, and he received a significant amount more money than I did, and we had almost the exact qualifications.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: And you attributed that immediately to the fact that he was male?
[00:09:51] Speaker C: Absolutely, 100%.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: What was the actual reason why?
[00:09:54] Speaker D: Probably was griefing something on that table. Actual proven reason.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: And I believe it's that because as well, my background is. My background is in law enforcement and child protection and sort of thing. So it's all very heavily male dominated.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Exactly. Belief is perception, lack of empirical.
[00:10:16] Speaker C: The same way he can say some woman is the same way I'm saying.
[00:10:23] Speaker D: That.
So you didn't think to ask him?
[00:10:27] Speaker C: No, because I wasn't in a position to do that. And just, it wouldn't look right being still employed there. So it's kind of just something that you have to kind of see what.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: You said there being. It wouldn't look right. That's an example of the agreeableness I hear about this man game.
[00:10:40] Speaker D: But all you gave. What I mean.
[00:10:46] Speaker C: Environment, she wouldn't do.
[00:10:47] Speaker D: That in a white environment.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: I think it depends on the agreeableness.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: And it's an assumption that Kali's male. And I think that there are many situations that I take your point, but I think that there are many situations where, and I asked the question up to this morning, I asked the woman, I said, when you go in for a job, a particular job, and remember, we put it in context in particular environments. And I think even in Jordan Peterson's case, he spoke about the example in Scandinavia where in a natural order of things, when people had their own decisions to be made, females gravitated to jobs.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: That were support based, support based, emotion.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Based, went to a position of being an engineer. Is it then that women are looking think, I'm not even using the word. Some women are women sometimes going for positions and thinking that. And in your case, where it's an assumption that I'm not getting that because it's a male.
[00:11:53] Speaker C: That was it. That was the reason. It was no other reason.
[00:11:56] Speaker D: I think it's an assumption because you.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Said it was never.
[00:11:59] Speaker C: And this is why women have to fight. Because when we see this is what it was, you all are coming and.
[00:12:07] Speaker D: Saying, no, we're not saying no, we're not saying no.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: It could very well be that.
[00:12:12] Speaker D: No, it could very well be that. What we are saying is you're not certain that it is that because you never ask, you never clarify. Nobody say, well, yeah, ABCDefg.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:12:24] Speaker E: Right.
[00:12:24] Speaker D: No, you may very well be correct. But until we find out that we know for sure, we have no idea.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Could it be nepotism?
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Could it be negotiated better?
[00:12:35] Speaker D: Maybe he tickled in something on daddy table.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: Okay. And if I was the only person that this happened to, then I would say yes. You know what? Maybe there is some underlying factor, but this happens disproportionately to women when we look at whatever studies. I mean, I know now probably in the states it's a little better in terms of the gender pay gap closing in. And I don't have much research on what it's like in, you know, based on my experience and what I've seen and just antidotal evidence, it appears that there's a huge gender gap as a result of just being a woman.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: So can we bring that into the context as well of then diversity? That, for example, if there's a job that is open and you say, okay, well, I have to fill a black quota or I have to fill an asian quota and I'm hiring somebody based on that as opposed to are they the best person for the job?
And people will say, yeah, a lot of times you have to hire someone based on you have to have a certain quota that you have to fill. But then ask yourself, if you're in a situation of, say, war or on a plane, would you want the best person or would you want diversity? Or you would you want equality?
[00:13:54] Speaker C: But then you make it seem like the diverse person is not necessarily the best person.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: I'm just speaking.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: Why is there a choice between the diversity and being the diverse and being the best?
He didn't say that.
[00:14:11] Speaker D: Also, we must say no. And there it is. It could be either one.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: No question.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: But your question is posing a choice. Right? Is it that I want the diverse person or do I want the best person?
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Do you want the best?
[00:14:21] Speaker C: I want the best person regardless of who they are. Right. But I don't know.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: So military service? Military service, you hear the argument all the time that if Trinidad and Tobago decided to go down that road, how many women at that point would then decide, hey, they want equality, or they decide at that point, hey, no, I'm good at home.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: I think men do have that to face where there are a lot of inequalities within the space of being a man, be it being drafted into the military. I know criminal sentences. I know men are more likely to receive higher criminal sentences than women.
A lot of things, right? A lot of things that child support, alimony, all these things that men. So I'm not saying that men don't have their battles to fight and their war to fight, but their war. I think also in you guys trying to fight those battles and kind of make awareness, I don't think you said you guys.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: So like some women, but okay, no.
[00:15:36] Speaker C: Thank you. But it also acknowledging women's rights and I guess that diversity and the despair and data in sexual violence and kind of like domestic violence doesn't negate the fight for the men. Right. So it doesn't really have to be, in my opinion. So when I said I wasn't a feminist earlier, is that I don't believe one cause is better than the other to some extent.
I think human rights is human rights, right?
Yeah. And how we go about highlighting awareness on all these different rights is really important. And it's more about, even though I will say things like you're saying some women and you're generalizing and all of that, at the end of the day, I still think we're all in one fight because we all have valid biases or differences. That happens.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: So.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I forgot what the initial point was.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: No, but I take it because it gives us a really good segue. We're going to take a short break now, but when we come back, as we continue on the topic of just saying no, we're going from equality, and I still want to continue touching on that particular topic. But as you brought up where men face in terms of in the criminal system, men have a very unfair. I'm not saying that I want to see more women in prison, but it's an unfair. And we talk about even when it comes to domestic violence. So I think this is a good segue to say, okay, let's take a break. And then when we come back, let's really focus on that aspect of just saying no. But we're not giving up on the whole conversation about equality for men and women.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Welcome back to manhood. Now, the conversation we started about equality between men and women. And we referenced Jordan Peterson's research on women being agreeable in the workplace and that they should be a little more assertive in asking for what they want, or at least even saying no. So in that stead, we moving forward a little bit to the just say no part of it. But we wanted to close off that equality aspect of it, understanding exactly what we mean when we say equality versus between men and women. Now, my thing is that because we are humans, things may not always be equal. And sometimes equality is based on our perception. Right. Now, we could have some numbers with it, but if we go in straight workplace, I remember your reference about women disproportionately paid less than men. That's something you could measure. But as the example you gave in terms of the place you worked, we wasn't too sure exactly what caused it. So there may be some other factors. Tell me what you think.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Well, for one, I think that's the reason why, and I'm going to stand by that. But as it relates to, when I think about equality in the context of men and women, I really see it as more of women and both men having the ability to choose what they want to do. Right. And I think that's really the meat and potatoes of, I guess, like the feminist movement. So it's not, in my opinion, it's not really a measure of does the man have this and does the woman have this? And is it 50 50? But to me, in my opinion, it's okay. So the woman, she can make a choice. She can make a choice to say, I want to work, or maybe I don't want to work. I want to get married, I want to have kids. I don't want to have kids, because we have to look at the history as well, right? It wasn't only up until a few. Couple of years ago where women were able to work or even were able to have their own bank accounts, right? And it's very recently. So I think for me and my perception of equality, is everyone really having the freedom to choose?
[00:19:50] Speaker A: So if we go down the road, I mean, shreen, we've discussed a couple of things on manhood, from masculine energy to toxic masculinity, to. I mean, I myself was just about to do it, mansplaining.
And I asked myself, is it that in every environment, because have you ever experienced where or a situation or had girlfriends or any colleagues at all, where they've actually said to you that this person got the job because they were male?
Where does it come from that there's an assumption that the person got the job because they were male. Is it because it's a male dominated environment?
[00:20:29] Speaker C: I don't think it's a subjection. I think data shows that. Data clearly shows that women are paid less than men in certain industries. I know within recent times that scale has been tipped a bit.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: No, but not economies of scale. I'm talking about position. So let's start with position first in terms of ceos. I mean, is it in Footsie, for example, I think seven of the top those companies in Europe have females as the head. So are you speaking. I'm asking to pick your poison. Are you speaking about position or are we talking about pay? Or we talk about position and pay.
[00:21:09] Speaker C: Well, I think they're both related to some sense. Right, because the higher position you are and the higher that you're paid. But if you were to think of it in the context of Trinidad, and again, I could be biased in my thinking, but I have been in the social service field for a very long time and my job is to interact with families on a daily basis. And I see disparity. I see it very much. And it would be wrong of me to come on here and say it doesn't exist. Or maybe my situation is a one off.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: You want to say, well, I'm going to jump in it because again, what I was trying to do, and again, it's not an opinion. I'm not chastising you or trying to.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: Get you to Robert.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get a clear understanding to those who are listening as to what is the position for us to then have a further discussion about. So when you say position and pay, I'm saying, is it that they're not enough ceos? Because when you talk about work as a social worker, that's in a relationship, something that we're going to talk about a bit further in this episode of manhood or this conversation of manhood, but I'm talking about the workplace because at home it's something different where the man might say, okay, well, I have to go, the woman has to stay home. Right.
We're going to get to that. I'm talking about in the workplace, because if we're talking about economies of scale, for example, I always remember World cup, the football team, the US football team had advocated for higher pay or equal pay with men. Right. I see that as ludicrous and I'm going to say that that's my opinion. And the reason for that is typically down the economies of scale. And it's the same reason, I would say that footballers, like Messi, et cetera, deserve the pay that they're going to get. Because if football, if men's football is bringing, say, hundreds of billions of dollars, right. There are two arguments here. One, what am I gaining? The money from the clubs, et cetera, is to come and see this footballer. So if it's for this footballer, and I'm seeing these quality of footballers, then that footballer should get the money, not the management, right? It's the same thing with regards to females.
If more men, or in terms of sponsors, the game is watched more by in terms of men's workup, brings in more money, then they get economies of scale, they get paid more. If women's football does the same, then by all means, economies of scale, pay them equally. But that's not the case. So to say you want more, it means somebody busting. So I want to go the answer, right.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: I go into what Srina was speaking about, and then I'll come into what you say, right. If it is really because I haven't done extensive research. But when the talk about the gender P gap started in the States, I started asking some businessmen here and doing small research, not too significant. And some of the businessmen actually said if they could actually pay a woman less, it would be better for their business. And they were showing me that it really do exist. Because to a businessman, if I could have more employees and pay less, that's better for business, right? So they were showing me that it really don't exist. They have to pay everybody equally. Right.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: And that's what I'm asking for empirical evidence. That's all I'm saying. Is it?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: No. Again, I didn't interview every businessman in Trinidad, right?
And some of the business owners were women also, right? And they were saying that doesn't exist. There's no way legally, and I say legally because I'm talking about a small parlor or something where you could pay somebody wherever you want. I'm talking about a business place where you have to apply. There's a job spec. There's no way that there is a position as, let's say, social work, that the salary is $1,000. And because you're a woman, I could try to pay you $900. There's no way that exists empirically thus far, right? Again, I ain't saying I interview every business, right? And then coming to what you're saying, I agree with you about bringing in money, because let's just say male or female, because there are some female athletes that might want to see more than male athletes, they should get more money in that field because it's based on not the club paying them, it's based on how much money they're bringing in. And I can even give a good example. When we're thinking about football, we think. We think about Messi, we think about Ronaldo, right? Who is the best female footballer? I have no idea.
But you know that because of your profession, most people do even know that. So why should she even be paid more? And nobody even wants to go and see that play, if you understand what I'm saying. So I agree with the quality of that. If you're popular and everybody want to come and see, you take the money where you are, box or where it is, right? That's the sports arena and with the business arena, I don't know, anywhere where there's a job spec, there's a pay amount. And because you're a woman, I could pay less.
[00:26:10] Speaker D: Sorry, but I sometimes even going to ask Shireen initially, because we talk inequality, right? You said that you brought it to yourself. You put a personal example inside of there where you was in some job and you and the guy, and you said that you'll have just about equal qualifications. Right? So is it. That is the exact same thing, yes or no? But even though you might have the same qualifications, were you all putting out the same amount of work, like the same output was coming from both of you?
[00:26:41] Speaker C: No, but we got recently hired, so there would be no measure of whether or not from start he was going.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: To get more and you're going to get less.
[00:26:53] Speaker D: All right.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: Which I think is just ingrained bias. But, yeah, this is probably not the.
[00:26:58] Speaker D: Audience to argue that, based on what your answer was saying earlier, where that's basically bias, it doesn't need to be gender based or anything like that, because I can see for myself as well. Recently I did a job, and my female counterpart, she's given more than me, and I actually put more energy and more vibes to the event, and I pull up more, but it's like, whatever. And that's simply because she was a woman. No, I just think that's because the organizers deemed her more valuable, or the organizers see that because she may have this background, maybe she could get this. But I never thought to myself, because she's a woman, they decide to give her more because this or because that. It's just because to me, isn't always about just the gender or the sex or anything like that. But the person that is doing the hiring or the person that is in charge. And as I said, bias. Everybody has it. Or what they believe or their belief, right? So sometimes it all just boils down to people, right? And what people think and how they want to operate or they want to run life or run their business. Because you just said, the businessman simply said if he could, he would, maybe rightly so.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Who's to say if he could pay employees less just because a woman, that's better for business for him?
[00:28:18] Speaker D: Because even, like in a simple variety store, in a simple variety store where everybody could get any c, a minimum wage, I could tell you that that guy inside is going to be doing all the heavy listing. Every time there's a boxer move, he's going to get called to move the box and he's pumping. He's not going any german, nobody looking ripped just from the work. Right? And all these guild, all these women may be doing any job is wiping on the shelf.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.
I think men are expected to do more manually than women.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Well, then this should be expected to be paid more.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: I always try to speak up good to the mics and we have the audio to pump it up again.
I always try to get an understanding of where we're coming from and we're having a good conversation here. And what it comes down to is fair. Is fair.
I would say to you that I totally understand where you're coming from, Shereen. I would also say that maybe sometimes it comes down to the interview, because whether it's male or female, even though you have the same qualifications or you may have better qualifications, how was the interview conducted? What did that person get from that person that might be more fitting to the particular role? And they feel they can get more, not just out of the specific role, but in terms of the ad value.
Having said that, I would say some of the most powerful women I know, let me rephrase that. Some of the most powerful people I know in Trinidad and Tobago are female. Let's use Ansa McCallum, Guardian media. Some of the most powerful members of Ansa McCall are all female.
The highest positions in Guardian media all are female. And they're not put there because they are female. They're put there because they're the best person for the job. And I can tell you they go toe to toe with the men on all fields and very educated.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: Well, I don't think I argued that women are not in powerful positions within Trinidad and Tobago. I think that they are. And I think that that speaks a lot about our culture and how we see women and how we view.
You know, if I was to really pull that again, that's within a certain space, right? Like within a corporate space, within this space, you see how women are regarded. But if we were to look at it from violence against women, maybe, right.
And I don't mean to come off topic or anything, but if you were to look at it as violence against women, right, we see where women are treated more unfairly in these kind of circumstances and these things. So even if we are to say, okay, but you know what, it have all these female ceos out here. So that must mean that as a society we love women and we're not biased towards women. I think we'd be wrong in saying that because the data does show that women do experience a lot more violence against them and I think just a lot more unfair circumstances. And again, this could just basically be from my own experience, and again, it's biased because of my job. Right. So this is what I see every day. So it's going to be what I think. So I do want to put that out there as well.
But again, I want us to be very careful in not making the conversation. Well, we have all these ceos and all these female leaders. So that must mean that women are doing better than men. Not at all.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: You're right. Because one of the things that even when you mentioned about gender based violence, that one in three, I think it's in Trinidad and men being a more dominant force physically, you will certainly have that over women. But what about. There's also the data that shows the high of the two in terms of gender to the suicide rate are males. And that's because males don't have that venue, that avenue to say what they feel if they themselves are being abused because there are other forms besides physical, there's mental, there's this financial.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: Well, I think the lack of mental health within spaces normally occupied by men and the discussion of mental health is a huge disservice to men and definitely something that I advocate for.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: So before we go to a break, just again, just to put it into context that we're not in any way saying that women aren't deserving of equality in terms of even equity and pay. It's just a matter of how you position yourself. And we know we need to do better. We focused on mansplaining and the whole reason for that topic, for example, was to identify that men call men out on this. We do it, identify it.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: Has your behavior changed since then? Since the man's planning episode. Do you feel like it?
[00:33:27] Speaker A: I don't know. Maybe if we touched one.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: I must not. Behavior change.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: Did yours divine? Yeah. Okay.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: I would certainly say yeah, for me, a lot. As I start off the show, you go in there with a certain subject, you've done a bit of research, and then you think, okay, well, I know I'm going to lead this conversation, and I usually would lead it. And then during the conversation you realize, wow, I've gotten pause for thought. And then by the end of it, there's always nuggets and there's always where I reflect and I think I could make a change. And you have a better understanding, even more than char gpt of things like mansplaining and toxic masculinity and masculine energy.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: Because the thing is, we're not fights in the. No. And that's sometimes where it gets a little skewed. To me. It's not men fighting against women, because if there are disparities on both ends, then we finding solutions will raise society in general. So why I ask about the evidence? Because if women really gain less than men, that's something that should be fixed. If men doing more work than women are not getting paid, then that's something that should be fixed.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Right. For all of us. All of us to rise. So that's why, even when questioning, because I want to make sure, because even in my own, because all of us have a bias, right. Diabetes, human sucks, right. And that bias, of course, is not based on evidence. Most times it's based on life experiences, which could be evidence in some realms, but let's say it's not statistical evidence. So everybody have a bias. So sometimes we have to be able to cut through that bias and see the truth of things. And that's what I really want. Yes, I enjoy the banter, right. But I mean, in terms of what manhood is about also, is men being better in general, of course, if we be better, the women around us better, our children, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: So I just add in that perfect joancy, and that's pretty much what we want to get at because we can get into sport, for example.
If women wanted equality across the board, and not being very specific, which you are, then you can say, okay, well, why isn't Shelley Ann Fraser Price running with Usain Bolt? There are reasons for that. We're not going to get into the biology, but the fairness of as a human, unless it really something that's associated with biology, there should be quality.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: I wonder if I agree with equality, but if I really believe in it after talking about this, I don't really.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: Know because a hot topic there then becomes how do women now feel about men saying to themselves, no, I'm a woman. And now entering your sport, your sports, and.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: A whole new topic.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: But yes, we take a short break.
[00:36:35] Speaker C: So welcome back to the conversation, Robert, again, I want to say thank you for inviting me. It's been a very interesting conversation. When you initially started, you talked about just saying no and kind of relating that to Jordan Peterson and women just saying no within the workplace and advocating for themselves. When I think of just saying no within the context of our society and especially our generation, and of course, my job as well, I think of just saying no in terms of male female, well, I shouldn't say male female relationships, relationships in itself and violence, sexual violence. That's just what comes to me because of, again, what I do for a living. So just say no and what that means. Right. And we can empower women. And even in my discussions that I've had on other forums, I always say, especially to young women, to just say no if you don't like something. If you don't like a guy, say no. If he's like, let's go out, let's go out or let's take a drink. There's this thing that happens very often. I shouldn't say here. I think it just happens where there's such a pressure to drink, right. Especially for women in social situations. And I've been in so many social situations where you want to drink no, I'm all right now. You got to take a drink. You got to take a drink. Right. And at what point is, even if I'm empowering a woman to just say no that a man is hearing that no, because I could tell a woman just say no. Just say no. But if men are not hearing the no, then what happens, right.
So I really want to kind of delve into that. And what just say no means to you and or you. And are you hearing when a woman say just say no or does just say no means and that happens. It happens so very often. All right.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Jumping in one is, I agree with telling people in general, just say no. I don't know statistically if women are pressured more than men to take a drink. To me, let's say Trinidad, let us Trinidad alone, I think everybody kind of pressured. I remember when I was younger and I didn't really want to drink, right. I grew up religious, right. And I know not to take a drink. But God know, even though I wasn't eating yet, men, I think, and I saw many men get under that pressure. So I'm not sure if it's a female or anything.
[00:39:05] Speaker C: I feel like you'd keep discounting every point that I don't think is why.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Let me tell you why. Because one, because you don't think it's.
[00:39:17] Speaker C: Valid in me saying that?
[00:39:18] Speaker B: No. If we go in with these stats and what you're saying before, if I know for sure female are disproportionately with something, I want to hear about it. So we could improve it.
[00:39:28] Speaker C: But women are raped way more than men, right?
[00:39:31] Speaker B: We shouldn't rape, just. No. We talk about drinking.
[00:39:34] Speaker C: No, but you're saying disproportionately affected, right?
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Yeah, we're talking about pressure to drink. That is the topic we stay on. Pressure to drink.
[00:39:44] Speaker C: But that was an example, and that's not the topic. The topic is a woman saying no and a man hearing them say no. So that was just an example of the bigger topic.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: So I'll start from there.
[00:39:57] Speaker C: Women, when they say, just say no.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: Okay, I'll segue into that. Is that I think, and I could see, I saw with some men is that sometimes you do hear the no, because you want what you want. Right? So if we go in straight from a man woman point of view, I'm not saying all men or some men, right. Let me just say I've seen it in your experience. They want what they want. It's like when I've seen men do it, even men in my family, they go to a store and they have a female clerk and she not smiling, and she have to smile for him. Now, right now.
I always thought something was wrong with her, because if person feels a smile, I like good, like good service, I want a smile, but at the same time, I can't force a smile. So there you go. Something small into the bigger things. Some men want, some men, I'm not biased with it. Some men would want a woman to react to them a certain way. And if she doesn't, he would force it. Right. I could see that. Whether it's forced to the point of sexual violation or even force rape.
[00:41:04] Speaker C: Not sexual violation, that's not a thing. What is sexual violation?
[00:41:08] Speaker B: I didn't read you rape yet. Right.
[00:41:10] Speaker C: What is sexual violation to you in differentiating between rape and sexual violation? Tell me.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: I was first in terms of if.
[00:41:18] Speaker C: You touch it and it does stick it in. So that's violation as opposed to rape.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: Finish.
[00:41:25] Speaker A: I'm interested now, because I would have known the disconnect to me, I will have thought rape is actual intercourse or penetration. But are you saying that there's one?
[00:41:33] Speaker C: No, but I mean that. So when you say sexual violation, right?
If you were to say, let's say sexual assault, so it's not rape, but it may be sexual assault or it may be some kind of criminality, it's not a sexual violation. You're not going to get arrested for sexual violation or woman is going to say you sexually violated.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: I mean, good point before you reach the point of breaking the law, right? Because I've seen some men put their arms around women, right? And you could see the woman uncomfortable, but that's what he wants. So if you want to go sexually, some sort of violation, because is he personal? You're touching them. And I've seen that and I've seen men because they want their way. So I'm saying it does exist, right? And it's something that is.
[00:42:19] Speaker C: Why do you think men have this persistent kind of attitude when it comes to getting what they want from women?
[00:42:29] Speaker B: I'll use two factors. It could be more, right? But I'll use two factors from what I've seen, because I've had female clients who, they came to me because they wanted to be more assertive in situations, right? And because of the type of worker to actually put them in the field to see how they operate with men so I could give them a better handle in terms of how to do things. So one is her confidence was low, right? And some men pick up on that, so they see opportunity where they could take advantage of a situation. So one, take an advantage. Two, I've seen some men because of ego. Now, ego sometimes is low. Self esteem. So your self esteem low. So let me see your car use lyrics or you're not confident in your looks or maybe your possessions or whatever you think to get females. So then you become forceful to take what you want because of low self esteem. And then on another realm, sometimes misinformation, because some of us men were taught you have to be persistent. If you're persistent, you'll get through that part of the methodology to be persistent. So even if you gain clear signs that the woman may be not interested or do like you, if you are persistent, you'll get through.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: But sometimes Johan say, and I want to bring Karen in because I noticed we haven't introduced him. Karen, aka Chinese. Thank you for joining us. We also like to thank Tadi for being part of the first couple of segments.
But when you see it all the time where you talk to friends and the woman says it all the time. This man was real persistent. I tell him no about seven, eight times. I know. Happily married, three, four children.
[00:44:08] Speaker E: And that persistence is cool. I could ask, I mean, I just say, and I could act like yellow on that date. I just in your dms and just messenger and you blank me and blank me and blank me and blank me and blank me. That difference from me raffing you up in a party, raffing your pana party and run you down and stand up behind your whole party, two people behind you watching. All right, cool. Now time to go and make toasting. Is different from persistent persistence is. I could be very nice and formal. Hi, sharing. Let's go to dinner.
Tonight's bad.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:44:42] Speaker E: Tonight's bad.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:44:43] Speaker E: All right, cool. Next Tuesday, I message her again, and then so forth and so forth until she say, all right, you know what?
He ain't coming across you wrong way. But let me see what going on this Tuesday. I'll go out with him and dies. Where's the difference between tostina son.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: That.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: Some men want bad girl, too. Right? It's not necessarily bad, is what bad man and bad girl have is a certain level of assertiveness and a certain level of freedom that a lot of us crave. So a bad man or a bad girl really care about the rules. And they are more themselves than people who are agreeable or people who not bad. They kind of stated rules, but they really want a little more freedom. So they are attracted to the, according to the research, they create the freedom that that person, man or woman, exhibits. Waiting. Karen.
[00:46:02] Speaker E: Sharon, what do you think?
[00:46:06] Speaker C: Well, I do like the want to, I understand what you're saying in terms of differentiating between the. But again, that's individual preference. Right. But if we were to really talk about it on a more general aspect of, again, and I want to go back to empowering a woman to just say no and then a man not hearing it. Right. So I'm going to put this question out for anybody. I'm not looking at him in particular, Robert, but how many times or have you guys ever been in a situation where, and I'm going to say a sexual situation where a woman has said no, and you've continued because you didn't hear that no. Right. And let's say that was to happen. You didn't hear the no. She tell you no. You didn't hear the no. You'll have sex. In your perception, you had sex right? She goes to the police and reports she was raped. And you're like, wait, what now? We just had sex. And then her report to the police is, yeah, but I told them no. I told them no. I told them no. Right? So now the police is asking you, did she tell you no? And you sit on there and you say, oh, shit, you know what? She really tell me no. So I am saying that because this is a very likely situation that could happen. And I'm not saying this to scare men or anything, but.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Never known you thought listening. And the after woman saying no inside.
[00:47:42] Speaker C: There already, she show up to the police station the next day and say she tell you no. And your cartel in your head, you might not see it, you might not want to admit it because you don't want to admit rape or something like that. But in your head, when you sit on home, you're, you know what? The girl really told me no. So it's really a matter in my opinion of introducing the idea of the conversation of consent and what that is. But again, I don't know if men are ready to do that because it's much easier for you to just go and go until a girl gives in as opposed to, can I have sex with you? Can I kiss you? You know what I mean?
But also to just cover yourself as a man, right?
[00:48:27] Speaker A: What about the other way around as.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: We talk about.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: A woman and you're on top of man and the man says, hey, no, I got legs do that.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Make sure.
[00:48:51] Speaker A: The woman know tool. Because you get to that point of when you start, well, then I would.
[00:48:57] Speaker C: Advise that person to go to the police and make a report against real.
But that's something that could really happen.
The only way the country is going to change.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: Let me throw something out, right? And a lot of people disagree with me with this. But thus far I've seen this to be true. Men, right? We men, everything is our fault, right? Hear mouth. Hear mouth. Hear mouth. Everything is our fault. We are responsible for everything. We are responsible for head in society. We are responsible for when everything go right. Or I totally agree. You could disagree with me because from everything I'm hearing, right? Because even with sex, we responsible to make sure nothing goes wrong.
Let me use what I'm sharing, right?
So I train that out. Because even with the no, I think, and I think a man should be cognizant during sex to make sure that the woman enjoying herself next thing something going on, et cetera. But I've never heard anybody say the opposite. But let me go with that, right, let me go with that and then research. So there's not me saying this research shows that even in sex a woman would prefer the man take off her clothes and she take off her own clothes because he has to be the person doing it.
[00:50:25] Speaker C: Who did this research, where you get that from?
[00:50:29] Speaker B: Jordan Peterson had something about that, right?
[00:50:33] Speaker C: I want to take off my own clothes. But again, this is not the.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: Everything is a man's fault. I chose that because. Based on why here and because even consent, if we go to somebody longitudinal study thus far from places where the consent is actually law, right?
Even women say that lame. If you understand what I'm saying, they don't want a man to come to ask consent, they want a man to finesse them, they want, et cetera, even somebody longitudinal to me kind of situational because I don't think in countries it around 100 years or 50 years yet, but even in some of those cases, so I'm not saying anything wrong with consent. I think no man should violate a woman in any way.
[00:51:17] Speaker C: Do you think a man should receive consent before having sex with a woman?
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:51:22] Speaker A: Oh yeah, without a doubt anybody should have consent.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: So why are there so many instances where I'm saying no? And I'm not just saying me personally, but I'm just saying like a woman is saying no. And there's this culture of persistence.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: So are you saying that, is there.
[00:51:38] Speaker C: Not a culture of persistence, do you agree?
[00:51:40] Speaker E: I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway, I don't know if there was no kind of manusle, but what I saying is if you blank, I'm already and you continue, and if you need bedroom and he blank, can you continue and continue and continue? Then that's your choices to get up and go today because it's either you go and let him do it or you that scared that something will happen.
[00:52:00] Speaker C: That you're right, I love that you say that because. Right, so when I'm in a situation where we're in the bed, I'm saying no, I'm saying no and he keeps going, right, but not all women can do that, right? Not a lot of people could do that. And then if we were to talk about that, we'd have to look at the imbalance of power, right? So a man is usually the one who is in that relationship, the person in power, be it physically, be it emotionally, be it mentally.
No, you have to discuss the imbalance of power when you're discussing something like this.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: But you're now giving further clarity. So I'm saying to you, if you're in the police station, let's go back to that example that you. So you're in the police station the day after and the police officer asks you, did she or did she not say no? Now, there are moments of your deep thrust, literally and figuratively, and your eyes roll back and you acted whatever the position is, right? And she says no.
There's a big difference to, as Chiney pointed out, you pick up yourself and you try to move and he holds you. Now that he holds you, then he would know at that point that, listen, in many ways, you're now very conscious of a physical action, of she's trying to fight and get away and you're holding this woman down.
[00:53:24] Speaker C: So you're saying that there should be different levels of no segment saying, just say no.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: What I'm trying to get at is that when I first heard that once a woman says no, it's real, right? I'm seeing that at that point. I'm seeing that look at the man's perspective at that point that he might not have heard. He mightn't think she's serious. It's like, hey, we've come home here. We've reached this point and we're doing it. But if she's.
[00:54:03] Speaker C: But then that's the discussion right there that you just said that she might not think he's serious. And I think it's the responsibility of the man to now learn what I say that when a woman says no, she's serious.
Yes, that is very.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Can I move to say no? And some sort of.
[00:54:26] Speaker C: Because again, men are usually in a more dominant position physically.
[00:54:35] Speaker E: So look at my side. Look at yours using way boy, I could take you.
Let me hold you down quick and then get out it.
For instance. I just think this is probably a bad example.
This is a bad example.
It's half time and party hunting. Like, I should be going call for sexual harassment.
[00:55:03] Speaker D: Go and call the coast guarding.
[00:55:04] Speaker E: We go on cruise, right? And I'll tick ting. And I say, I'm here with whoever it may be. And then say me, because what tick tinguan do. Ticking one, watch me and say, dog, look at this food. And just wind back on me. And I carry nothing. I don't know. Oh, gosh.
Just come up the stage.
[00:55:23] Speaker C: Just come up now.
[00:55:27] Speaker E: Please.
[00:55:28] Speaker C: All right, cool.
[00:55:29] Speaker E: They'll wind back for a little 20 whatever, and then they'll go about your business. But I know, get cruise rape.
[00:55:38] Speaker B: No way, no. Get violated.
[00:55:40] Speaker E: Yeah, violation.
[00:55:41] Speaker C: I didn't want that, then you should have.
[00:55:48] Speaker B: You were saying that she should have. Leave.
[00:55:55] Speaker C: It on mine and apart.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Take it upon themselves. Grab booms, you grab everything and they take it upon themselves. But I want to bring it back into the context because I really want people to understand where I'm coming from. I'm saying to you that if you're in bed and you're no longer interested and you show no signs based on.
[00:56:19] Speaker C: You'Re saying the words, that should be enough.
[00:56:22] Speaker A: But if you're saying the word, I.
[00:56:23] Speaker C: Argue that that's enough.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: I'm not saying it isn't. When a woman says no, it's no. But I'm saying to you that women, again, must also take responsibility to understand that if you are in the throes of it and you no longer want it, and you're not making any other gesture apart from saying no, how is at that point where the man is thinking, well, you consented up until this point and are you really serious? Like, have you ever been in a relationship where a woman says, oh, no, I don't want any? You sure you don't want any?
And then when you get it, half your plate gone, right.
[00:56:58] Speaker C: So I'm just saying that you could compare food and.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: No, but I'm just trying to say, because we're not talking about just in the context of a one night stand, we could talk about in a relationship.
[00:57:10] Speaker C: So what do you think? The awareness should be a part, because what I'm hearing is some sort of move. So just say no and punch him. That should be the name of the segment.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: It could be just say no and maybe a prompt or something, like you turn your head or something.
[00:57:25] Speaker C: Then why do we have to teach women to do something other than just say no? Just say no plus something. Because men, this is what I'm hearing they're not capable of. When I.
[00:57:44] Speaker B: Finish.
[00:57:46] Speaker C: That's what you're saying. Yes, it is. You're saying that. Okay, it can't be just the word no. It has to be the word you're saying. It has to be the word no plus you need to move your head or you need to do this. Right.
So what I'm saying is, why does it have to go from just say no plus do something else as opposed to the conversation continuing to stay men, you know what she said no. So let it just be no. Right, but that's not what you all are doing.
It can't be just. It had to be just plus something else.
[00:58:22] Speaker A: What I'm saying to you is, hear me well, I am saying to you that. Just say no. No is no regardless. Right? Make it very clear. No is no. What I'm saying to you. Just like in a job interview, some way someone would add value. I'm saying when you say no, if you are really saying no at that point, it will be more in your favor to show more than just no.
[00:58:50] Speaker C: Yeah, okay. But I'm literally saying.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: Some sort of gesture that shows him.
[00:58:58] Speaker C: Let me jump in.
Which we usually do in these conversations.
[00:59:09] Speaker B: What you're saying is correct. If a woman say no. No is no. Right?
[00:59:13] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: Right. What you're saying about another gesture, I do quite agree with you with that, because I don't know what the next gesture is right now.
[00:59:21] Speaker C: What I'm saying now, just say no one punched.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: Let me finish. No. Right. You said before men, and because this on camera, we could rewind and say, you said that men are to be capable of understanding what a woman mean. Now, remember when I say. I was going just no. No. Just.
[00:59:42] Speaker C: You don't even need to be yes.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: No. What I've seen is about men having the power and everything is our fault. Men, a lot of responsibilities on us to understand what we mean and also what women mean. Right? Now, you could argue with me, but what you are saying is clearly that. And I could show many examples of this, that if you have power, with great power comes great responsibility and understanding. Sometimes the nuances of a woman might be a high learning curve. And thus far, since thus far, what I've seen is that is just the burden we had to carry about understanding. Because you meet ten different women. Ten different women, signals of no. Yes. It's ten different things that you may have to understand or else, based on what we've seen then, is grass. So understanding the language. Right. So today alone, Japanese, tomorrow in Chinese, tomorrow in african, tomorrow. And that's just the burden sometimes, or the privilege or the power that we have to understand the responsibility that we have when we're dealing with women.
[01:00:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And I think also understanding the risk. Right. So in me saying this and me advising, I don't want to say advising, but me just having this discussion, it's to let you guys know that that is a very real possibility that you could be having sex with a woman. And then she says no. And next day, the police station saying she said no. And it would be an actual fact that she did say no even if we were to throw in. So let's say we threw in maybe drugs or alcohol within the mix. Right. Trinidad has a very big party culture and party scene. I know I wasn't living in Trinidad then, but there was this. What was the drug? What's the drug? Or drink?
No, now it's Molly. But like, back in the day, there was a drug that they would give spanish fly. Correct? Right.
And it was a very well known fact that if you give a woman spanish fly, she becomes so intoxicated that you're able to have sex with her. And it became.
Now seeing that that's the culture. Right. We all accept that that's what has happened within the past.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: It's not a culture, but it has happened in the past.
[01:01:57] Speaker C: It's a culture of it happening. It's discussed almost as, like, common knowledge. Right. So we no longer have spanish flies. So let's say now we have new drugs in. Right. So we have Molly, we have ecstasy. So now it's going to be translated into that. So then the question becomes, if a woman is high on Molly, high on some kind of ecstasy, or that she's drunk and she's saying no, then what is the responsibility and or the risk to a man in that situation? And these are things that, as men, you just want to think about. Right.
[01:02:28] Speaker A: But Shereen in the police station, and the man says, I didn't hear her say no.
[01:02:33] Speaker C: Well, then, you know, but she's already.
[01:02:35] Speaker A: Started to say that she consented to sex. So they have that on record. They consented to sex. So the question then is, well, did you hear her say no? Because she's now saying she said no, but she's already agreed that she consented to sex.
[01:02:47] Speaker C: How she say no, I'm consented.
[01:02:50] Speaker A: We are saying that during sex, the woman then says no. So at any point she changes her mind, no is no. Right. And it's rape. And that's what men are hearing, and that's what's part of the scariness. Now, if you're taking it forcefully from the start, then you know it's rape. Right. It's obvious. The surprising factor here is that during the act, if she says no during that point and there's no punch or there's no movement to get out a dodge, right. That if she goes to the police station the next day, you're going to be in shock to then say to yourself, I don't understand, she consented. Now, when they go to the police officer and you say yes, she said no, then they have you there for real. But what if you say, I didn't hear her, but it's on record that she has said she consented.
[01:03:36] Speaker C: Right. But it's still a matter. Right? So I guess it's up to the investigator to collect evidence. And I guess it's maybe if the matter goes to the judge or the jury.
But again, that's what due process of law is. It's going to be your word against who is. And you guys go through whatever system.
[01:03:58] Speaker E: Does he hold long run it. But I just might have cut this out or something. But what should like this, right?
I'm going to say that because this.
[01:04:07] Speaker B: Is the kind of people I know.
[01:04:08] Speaker E: I know a couple of people even need to be that serious. And there's like, I guess, woman equality, inequality, equality with men thing.
He gets some sex, the girl like a little choke out, a little hard slap, not wrong with her.
[01:04:23] Speaker A: Cool.
[01:04:26] Speaker E: Hard slap, cool, not wrong with her. Some days later, he and she and the soldier fall out, and she doesn't like that one. Going by police station, say, look, you rape me, look hard slap, hard cough. And in his head he's thinking, but wait now. But we do this together. Look, I take some hard cough, too.
And at that point, police want to come by your house and embarrass them.
[01:04:54] Speaker C: Well, and that was a discussion we were having earlier as well. That is a plight that men have to deal with. Right? False allegations. And again, it would be up to trusting the system.
[01:05:04] Speaker E: Right? So when you say in the air, boy, manners, ten and persistent and ten and think that is the kind of man that must come wrong, you tell.
[01:05:12] Speaker B: Me no.
[01:05:16] Speaker E: You know what? I just know into this. All right?
[01:05:26] Speaker A: And I think also it comes down to, because we need to take a break and come back, because there's a lot in here, a lot of good discussion, and we just need to really bring it into focus as to what the message is. We understand the message is very clear. It's just say no. And at any point a woman says no, it's no unless that's a part of your safe word.
And in doing that, it also comes down to you and say, I think the type of man. Because for me, if I'm being with a woman, a big part of me is making sure that she's pleasured. And if that's a huge part of me wanting to, that's where my ego comes in. I want to make sure she's pleasured, she's had a good time. And therefore, if in that circumstance that's not happening, then any form of know whether it's said or it looks that way or you get in a particular vibration. I done.
[01:06:19] Speaker B: If a form of being pleasured is forceful, then you do that, too.
[01:06:25] Speaker A: So that's one we could come back from the break with.
That's a good point. Whether that's part of what they call for it, those are all scenes that people like to enact, and that could be part of.
[01:06:37] Speaker C: All right.
[01:06:38] Speaker B: I never hear that before.
[01:06:39] Speaker A: All right, party of bedromantics, take a short break.
[01:06:56] Speaker B: To the manhood conversation. Now, we discuss many different topics between the dynamics between men and women. Just say no. We talk about equality, and we talk about even asking for consent and what constitutes rape. And in terms of people in the middle of the act of sex, that someone could say no, and you have to acquiesce to that, or else it could be considered rape. And we're trying to figure out exactly how you would know what no is. We discussed no means no. And just coming in with some of those dynamics because I found some research from New York where affirmative consent was actually implemented in law and some of the dynamics surrounding it. So I'll just read it quickly. Police and defense attorneys may no longer present the victim's lack of refusal during sex as evidence of non consent because they were saying that once you sign the document, now, there's an actual document for affirmative consent where between. Before two people have sex, they actually have to sign something saying that they both consent to it. And they're saying once they signed, neither person could refuse in the middle of sex. Now, this is important because it kind of even negates what we were talking about. And this is important for me, because human dynamics are such a fluid thing, and really understanding when is no what means no. What is the norms of the dating culture should I keep pursuing?
It really brings in the question that gray area. Now, personally, I say, if somebody say no is no, whether it is male or female, if somebody say no, they don't want to do something is no. Also, I think most times, and I could be wrong, that you could feel the energy when somebody don't want to do something. I say most times because, again, there's human dynamics. And as I was saying before, with us men, we have the privilege and the responsibility and the learning curve of figuring out what every woman we interact with means in certain scenarios. So I'm saying that we men, because we have power, in certain scenarios, we could be responsible with our power to ensure. Because even if a woman say that she consents, yes, she want to have sex with you based on the law. If in the middle of the sexual act, she says no, and she goes and reported it could be considered rape. So they say knowledge is power. So understanding that this is the reality of things, you could put it in your mind so that when you need the dating scenario, this is something to consider. Now, it might be a lot, but if this is the reality right now, it's better to face reality so you could be able to navigate it in a healthy manner.
[01:09:51] Speaker A: You could imagine, and I use it, you would tie upness. A man will get in his head after hearing something like this on manhood. Imagine you unimilly act, and a woman says no, meaning it might touch another orifice or something might happen. And you go, no.
In your head would know, and you might start a pullback, and all of a sudden it's floppy loppy, you're done.
You're not even interested again, because the anxiety you might be feeling that point at any kind of thing, because she might just be no to that position, or no, it hurts. And I know your chain, and you just hear no and fly off like, okay, it could draw men off.
[01:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:33] Speaker A: Also have to know that if you say no and you're not saying no with a certain element of forcefulness, I'm not saying you can't be overpowered. I'm saying where no, the man mightn't hear it, or no, meaning the man might understand specifically where you're coming from. No is no. And I'm not arguing with that. I'm just saying that if you know and you can be in a situation where you start to get a lot of paranoid men out there.
[01:10:59] Speaker C: Well, can I just say, Robert, I think it's interesting that in a discussion about consensual sex and a woman saying no, meaning indicating she no longer wants to have sex with this person, and that could be for very different reasons, that your concern is how the man thinks. How the man reacts to hearing no seems to be your concern, as opposed to the state that the woman is in, that brings her to where she has to say no. Right.
[01:11:36] Speaker A: This is manhood.
The whole aim of this show is to reach men and young men and to give them advice and to let them know where they stand. So it's not one concern over another. Just saying no is no. And of course we want how we show up.
I don't believe in domestic violence. I don't believe in abuse of women. I don't believe in non equality. So I'm saying to you that what my concern is to be able to express to the young men and men listening here, to be able to say, okay, well, I'm asking you as a female to also reach out to women and let women understand, as we've done in shows the trigger points and what may in your consideration, even if we're saying no, and even if we're saying that violence of any kind could never be accepted, a woman should also know that. Listen, it wouldn't go against you to understand triggers, to understand that this is how you can, I agree, assist.
[01:12:34] Speaker C: So you should make your no more.
[01:12:40] Speaker A: Powerful, a little more powerful so the man knows that.
[01:12:45] Speaker C: So then the term no means no.
Is that right?
No means no, but loud enough for the man to hear and forceful enough for him to understand that you mean it. So then it's not really no means no. It's no means no, plus all these other factors. And I just think it would be more beneficial to men if from you hear no. To relieve yourself of any risk of any kind of. Just be paranoid. I'm not saying just be paranoid. I'm just saying be careful because this is what the reality is.
[01:13:22] Speaker E: No, but that's how the game is. Everybody. This will apply to everybody. Certain people.
[01:13:31] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[01:13:32] Speaker E: If I think just say, somebody in the right mind might be like, you know what?
I'm going to keep on. Let me just not be a part of that.
[01:13:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:13:42] Speaker A: And then where do you draw the line? We spoke about choking or that sort of sexual play. Where do you draw in the line?
[01:13:50] Speaker C: Well, I think sexual proclivity, it's a different conversation in itself. Right.
[01:13:55] Speaker A: We have time to talk about.
[01:14:00] Speaker C: Again, I'm not a sex therapist, and I don't feel like I have much to say on sex or that's probably a horrible thing to say, but I think that's different. I think discussions about what you like in sex or even a check in, like, do you like this? Is this okay? You can get verbal or nonverbal cues of whether or not you should continue or not continue.
[01:14:21] Speaker A: So there are cues.
[01:14:22] Speaker C: I think there. I'm not saying there is.
[01:14:24] Speaker A: So there could be cues in.
[01:14:26] Speaker C: No.
[01:14:26] Speaker A: A cue to say no off or no, stop.
I'm just saying the cue.
[01:14:32] Speaker E: Is there body language?
If it is a choke, I think.
[01:14:39] Speaker C: Why are you calling it a thing?
What is that?
[01:14:47] Speaker A: You talk. No, because we meet people with her.
[01:14:50] Speaker E: If I bed with a woman and end up choke, she. And hit you a little hard slap, bow, and then next time around here, no, same hard slap again, and she's had a flinch up, then. Yeah. Okay, cool.
[01:15:07] Speaker C: Right?
[01:15:07] Speaker E: No, hard slap again on a pass. Because that's true.
[01:15:10] Speaker A: It's a cue.
[01:15:11] Speaker C: And again, that's picking up on the cues, too, which I think is safe.
[01:15:14] Speaker A: So, again, this is a topic that we would continue to talk about in manhood, and we'll continue to have these conversations. And I want people to know that nothing that was discussed here is a specific opinion of anyone. It's a discussion here to meet people where they're at and to have everyone know, everyone thinking their own thoughts. And it's about trying to have a discussion around that. And sometimes it's a heated discussion, but it's a very powerful discussion and a positive one in the end, because the end result is always to make a positive change. So if we can have some context. What's your takeaways on that? Let me start with Shereen.
[01:15:55] Speaker C: On what?
[01:15:56] Speaker A: On just say no. On the topics today, do you feel that you've been heard?
[01:16:00] Speaker C: I do. I think that this forum and this outlet is necessary because our world is changing, right. And so fast, so rapidly. And I think men and or women really shouldn't be caught up in saying, I didn't know that it was like this, or I didn't know that this is how it is now. Right. So having these discussions and having these forums and understanding the risk of certain actions to both men and or women, I think is very important.
[01:16:30] Speaker A: And with regards to equality, what are some of the things that you'd want to see apart from just pay or position?
How can someone meet? Sort of an immediate change, low hanging fruit, and then grow to having a better understanding of what women are going through and feeling?
[01:16:47] Speaker C: Well, I always say that I think violence against women is heavily perpetrated on men's assumption of women or what men think of women. So I think if men were to change how they see and or view women, and it could be small things like Chinese not calling them thing. Right.
Maybe I'm not to blame you, but less objectification. I think those kind of really small, low hanging and fruit things is what can really change the culture of men towards women. Yeah.
[01:17:24] Speaker A: That'S a whole other topic I'd like because you mentioned objectification, but women like men.
[01:17:29] Speaker B: You want to feel, don't study.
[01:17:31] Speaker C: Next.
Do not. What women you think women want to see.
[01:17:38] Speaker A: I stand out.
[01:17:41] Speaker B: I've often heard about the battle of the sexes, right? And I know sometimes we do it in a joking manner, so I'm not taken away from the joke, any fun of it, but inevitably, I don't believe any battle of the sexes because nobody wins. So it don't make sense that we fight in each other. I advocate for truth. And that's what we started manhood about, men speaking the truth. So therefore, if you're speaking the truth, and now we add in both men and women, say exactly what you mean, say exactly how you feel, what you like, what you don't like, and be honest to it yourself. So even going before being honest with someone else. Right. First, men, be honest with yourself in terms of what you want from a woman, what you're willing to do, what you don't want to do, et cetera. Also still adding in that men, we have to ensure and learn every language of every woman that we know so that we can navigate it properly. Whether you find that hard or difficult right now as well.
[01:18:41] Speaker C: Right.
[01:18:41] Speaker B: Maybe diesel reality that I see, and talking to the men and older men, younger men, I'm always willing to be proven wrong. But we no means no. Either way, we take it and let's not fight each other. Let's hear each other out. And so we could make a healthier society.
Karen?
[01:19:04] Speaker E: Me, I think pretty easy, in my opinion. I think no.
[01:19:10] Speaker C: Great.
[01:19:10] Speaker E: I think no. Okay, cool. If somebody say, no, okay, move on with your life. You know what I mean? Therefore, we are things you could be doing.
What's not for you to get yourself in a big mom pants if you talk about sex.
And then. Well, I wasn't here for the big equality part, but equality thing. If you ask me about that, that's a whole next thing, because I don't find of any man woman inequality. I know women waking more money than men in the same position that she said, like how she was saying she and homeboy come into the same time and he ended up making more money than she was making. But I know it's like. I know it's in the opposite. Like, I work in places where he's secretary making more money than me. Why we think.
There you go.
So the inequality thing and equality thing, I don't think there's maybe in your industry, but a big, super big issue that I find is something that happens and shouldn't have plenty in terms of work and those kind of things.
[01:20:12] Speaker A: Okay, so I would like to close by just saying. I know Shereen is probably really wanting to retort to that statement, but what it comes down to is certainly what we can agree on. Shereen and, guys, we can't agree there is a movement.
There clearly was a disconnect, and there still is an ongoing disconnect. I mean, the western hemisphere is a bit more pronounced in terms of the changes that are being made as opposed into some other countries.
With that being said, there needs to be changed. Human is human.
The position is the position. And may the right, I was going to say the right man get the job, but may the right person get the job. And there's just certain positions that are better suited to a male and there are certain positions that are better suited to a female. But in the bigger context of things, the better person gets a job. Not down to ethnicity, not down to gender. It's just the best suited person. And that's the way I feel about it. But we have a lot to do. We've only scratched the surface.
[01:21:21] Speaker E: If that perfect world, that's all you like it to be, right?
[01:21:26] Speaker A: But it's not utopia.
In order to make the change, you have to acknowledge that change needs to be made. And I think on shows like manhood and many other shows and many other discussions, I don't think anybody comes out as an advocate to say, leave women where they are.
[01:21:42] Speaker E: No. Maybe I missed part of this, but I just saying, young lady, in terms of all this woman's rights and feminist things and all them kind of things, right. Wait out that widows, you all can't do.
No. In terms of obvious hard labor, what rights that we have that you all have now?
[01:22:04] Speaker C: None.
[01:22:05] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:22:06] Speaker E: So is he fight about?
[01:22:08] Speaker C: Well, because research shows that women are discriminated in many aspects of life. But again, I think that would be a whole different show.
To say that because women have the same rights as men doesn't mean that they don't experience bias. I think that would be incorrect to.
[01:22:26] Speaker A: Say agreed, because it also comes down to everybody can apply for a position, but who gets the position in the end? And is there a boys club? Boys clubs exist, but they're also, there's a huge. But as you said, that's a whole other topic of discussion. We understand that it is there and we have to start acknowledging it. Right. I do take Johansson's point that women also need to understand the part that they play. And even though it may not seem to, why should we be doing that? And if we continue to do that, the definition of insanity, continue to keep doing the same thing, but you're expecting a different result. So if you know that there are certain things that are going to trigger men to do certain behaviors, instead of saying, well, that's an ego, that's the insecurities, that's how they show up. I've heard it before, men and their right, but that's what it is. So if you continue to do those things, don't expect a different result. But if you want to make a change, sometimes the change needs to start from somewhere, so the little changes may reap big results. And when it comes to my thoughts on no, I just want to be very clear. No is no. And I think the safer thing to do is to say, let's debate it after let's debate the why.
If you're deep into it and the woman says no, or whoever your partner says no at that particular point, stop. Debate it after a why? You said no. Let the ego come out at that point, safeguard yourself. So Johanse, Shireen Chiney, aka Karen. Karen, aka Chinese. Always a pleasure. This has been manhood, another really powerful discussion. No means no. Justin.
